MR CHAMPION:  I withdraw that.  (To witness) What happened was this.  Councillor Lipshutz asked Councillor Penhalluriack to leave the meeting?—I don’t recall that, Mr Champion, and I just repeat that I am not aware that anybody actually has the authority to tell any councillor to actually leave a meeting.

I used the word tell the first time, I use asked this time, if something turns on it.  Councillor Penhalluriack’s evidence will be, sir, that Councillor Lipshutz asked him to leave the meeting.  Do you agree or disagree with that or can’t remember?—I don’t recall that.

Councillor Esakoff asked him to leave the meeting?—I don’t recall that either, sir.

And they did so in raised voices?—I don’t recall that either.

SENIOR MEMBER:  Do you think you would have recalled it if they had asked Penhalluriack to leave in raised voices?—Yes, I do, sir.

MR CHAMPION:  You say it didn’t happen?—I don’t recall that happening, I don’t recall raised voices, no.

Do you recall them asking him to leave?—No.

The reason that they asked him to leave was that they said that he had a conflict of interest as to Item 12.10.  That was what happened, sir, that’s what I’m suggesting to you; yes or no?—I don’t recall that happening, sir.

And that he protested that he didn’t wish to leave the meeting, that’s what happened?—I don’t recall that happening either.

And he left under protest?—I certainly don’t recall any protest.

SENIOR MEMBER:  Just let me explain to you.  I understand your answer “I don’t recall,” but let’s assume for a moment that, as Mr Champion said, Councillor Penhalluriack gets up and swears that he was told, and the Tribunal is going to be left with a position where Councillor Penhalluriack says something was certain, and you’re using the word don’t recall.  When I asked you last time about the raised voices you said if that happened I probably would have recalled it.  Now when you say you’re not recalling this are you saying you just don’t remember what happened or are you saying, look, if it had have happened I probably would have recalled it?  Because it’s pretty important from our point of view.  Do you understand the difference?—Yeah, I do, sir.  Look, I don’t recall.  I don’t know whether you’ve ever had the experience of being in a pre meeting of councillors but – – –

I haven’t had the experience of even being in an ordinary meeting of council?—From time to time, sir, they can get interesting to say the least.  Governments at the local level can get a bit exciting at times.  But in this particular instance I don’t recall people asking another councillor to leave, I don’t recall raised voices.  Usually when things get a bit hot under the collar and things start to spiral out of control I usually do remember those instances.

Would you call this spiralling out of control?—No.

Sorry, if there had have been Councillor Lipshutz and/or Councillor Esakoff asking Councillor Penhalluriack to leave in raised would you say that’s spiralling out of control?—I’d put that in that category, sir, yes.

MR CHAMPION:  The effect, sir, was to the extent that Item 12.10, the bullying training motion at that point was discussed at the pre meeting, Councillor Penhalluriack did not participate in that discussion?—Well, the minute actually records him leaving the room at 7.25.

The discussion such as it was, was after he left?—As I recall it there was some chatter as Councillor Penhalluriack was circulating his letter.  He then leaves at 7.25 and then as you can see from the record shortly after that all officers with the exception of the director of community services also left.

SENIOR MEMBER:  When you say officers you don’t include councillors?—No, sir, no.

MR CHAMPION:  The reason he left was so that Item 12.10 could  be discussed in his absence?—Well, I – – –

MR ATTIWILL:  I object to the question.  The reason he left?  Did he give a reason?  I mean, it’s not up to him.

MR CHAMPION:  He can’t read Councillor Penhalluriack’s mind.

SENIOR MEMBER:  He may have stated a reason, I don’t know.  You can certainly ask that.

MR CHAMPION:  What Councillor Penhalluriack’s evidence will be, sir, is that he left under protest because he was asked to leave, and you don’t remember that?—That’s correct.

Do you recall whether he did state a reason as to why he was leaving?—No, I don’t recall any reason.

SENIOR MEMBER:  Is that a convenient time?

MR CHAMPION:  Yes, if the Tribunal pleases.

<(THE WITNESS WITHDREW)