The outcomes from last night’s council meeting should provide a clear message to all residents that councillors are incapable, or unwilling, to represent their community. It is beyond doubt that there is no intention of doing anything about the new zones.
The gallery was packed to the rafters with residents holding placards opposing the destruction of neighbourhoods. Yet on each planning application councillors came up with basically everything that the developers wanted. Once again the old clichés and shonky arguments were trotted out on cue – most of them irrelevant to the issue at hand. We will go through each application in detail so that all readers can judge for themselves the nonsense that parades as informed decision making by these 9 individuals.
Item 9.1 – Tucker Road Bentleigh – Childcare centre for 142
Okotel moved to accept. Lipshutz seconded.
OKOTEL: said that many many residents’ comments concerned the increased traffic problems that would be created and that there were ‘queries’ about the developer’s traffic management report and how ‘outdated’ it was. However, council had conducted its own investigation on the 18th September and took into account school drop offs and the impact on the local side street. Went on to say that Council’s ‘survey’ was in peak periods and it found that with the childcare centre the outcome would not be ‘burdensome’. Continued with the conditions that council was imposing such as acoustic fences and increased setbacks. Council has got a policy for non-residential uses in residential areas and with the conditions these meet the requirements. Because the proposal has a pitched roof it is therefore in keeping with ‘the character’ of the street. Okotel then stated that she had asked the developer, who runs other such centres, whether they had received any complaints about these other centres and ‘whether there were any issues to do with traffic’. The ‘developer assured that that hasn’t been the case’. Okotel supports the officer’s recommendations because of the ‘strict conditions’ the permit imposes.
COMMENT: Residents should surely be reassured when councillors’ decision making relies on the developer’s word that his other enterprises have not garnered any complaints. Apart from being totally irrelevant to the application at hand, we can only surmise that a developer’s opinion counts far more than resident views!
LIPSHUTZ: began by saying that in today’s world most family income in spent on mortgages which means that both parents work and that childcare is required. Further, that with this application, ‘this is an area where children are’. So ‘this is the right place’ but the question is ‘how can we reduce the impact on the community’. Because council has increased the area permitted for each child the effect has been to ‘reduce the number of children’ to 132 instead of 142. Agrees with Okotel and they’ve reduced the impact on community but at the same time created a childcare centre ‘where it is required’.
LOBO: said this was a ‘recipe for disaster’. Agreed that children need places like childcare, schools, and so on, but there ‘should be certain place for certain things’. Said that kids would be ‘shouting’ and ‘neighbours be disturbed’. Traffic will be ‘mayhem’ since there are 7 local streets and the traffic flows to East Boundary Road or shopping in Centre Road. He’s not saying that ‘we should disregard children’. Council has a walking strategy on the one hand but council is also ‘encouraging young kids to be hit’ by cars as they go to their primary and secondary schools. Said it ‘was a shame’ that kids can’t walk safely. Didn’t think that there was a ‘shortage of childcare’. He is ‘disgusted’ that non-residential businesses can operate in residential areas.
DELAHUNTY: wanted to correct Okotel’s claims about the traffic reports because she got it wrong about who did what and when and because there are ‘some people’ who are ‘very, very good on the details’. Okotel merely made an ‘error’ in inverting ‘who did what’. Said that council’s traffic report was done in 2011 and counted 1450 cars whilst the applicant’s report was ‘on a weekday’ in September 2014 and found 1150 cars. Officers used the 1450 figure because it was bigger and ‘might give a better indication’ of what the traffic is like. Having visited the area she could see that traffic ‘doesn’t flow very fast’. She lives on a ‘beautiful’ wide street and they have traffic calming to keep the speed down. This might look like a ‘messy’ option, but to her and the traffic engineers, it is a sensible solution. As a mother of 3 kids she uses childcare centres and these days people use the basement car parking. It can be hard and there might be some ‘manoeuvring’ especially with babies but is ‘actually quite safe’. On Lobo’s point about children’s noise it is an incredibly ‘happy and joyful’ thing to hear kids playing. If people see this as ‘bedlam’ then she believes that this is a ‘very sad response’.
COMMENT: Are we supposed to congratulate council because they relied on data from 2011? Surely with recent development in the area, and overall increase in traffic movements, figures going back three years are as implausible as the developer’s traffic management report? Residents need to be asking why council does not undertake its own up-to-date analysis of such proposals?
ESAKOFF: said this was ‘allowable use’ so they can’t oppose it and it meets all the requirements for a ‘preferred location’. Thought that they need to consider ‘neighbourhood amenity’ and ‘neighbourhood character’. There is ‘adequate’ transition to the neighbouring properties and the setbacks will ‘minimise visual bulk’. Worried about neighourhood amenity and the condition about the acoustic fence – ‘that’s fine’. but the numbers even at 132 ‘are too high’. Went through other applications where no permit was given for over 120. Thought that reducing numbers would address noise and traffic issues.
HYAMS: ‘thought long and hard about this’ but council has got ‘the right response’. There was concern that if this commercial business was allowed then others could also be allowed but ‘that’s not the case’ except for medical offices and places of worship. People also commented on another application in Tucker Road that was refused but that one wasn’t on a corner. Also if this is refused, then the owner who has got two blocks and ‘will build flats’ which will be ‘up to 10.5 metres high’ and this is lower so ‘far less impact on the area’. Also flats will be ‘busier’ during the night when ‘everyone’s home’ and even residents prefer a childcare centre to a block of flats. So ‘it’s one or the other’. Traffic is an issue but with childcare centres the movements are ‘staggered’ since people arrive and leave at different times. Mentioned the Glen Eira Road childcare centre which council refused but VCAT allowed so chances of them ‘disallowing’ this one is remote. On the number of childcare centres in the area, this wasn’t a ‘planning issue’ and if there are plenty, then this one might stand empty.
COMMENT: Quite incredible that what other childcare centres are in the area isn’t a ‘planning issue’, but somehow, what the developer could build if the proposal is knocked back IS a planning issue. Consistency of argument is definitely not councillors’ forte!
SOUNNESS: said he would prefer fewer children but didn’t see grounds for refusing and with all the conditions imposed saw this as in an ‘acceptable form’.
OKOTEL: said this wasn’t an easy decision and in relation to noise the conditions require ‘acoustic’ walls to ‘alleviate’ this. Where kids play near houses then the conditions again require this to be for babies and that the applicant has said that the babies would ‘only be outside if they are settled’. In regard to numbers, council has applied the guidelines and this reduced the numbers proposed by the applicant. Since it’s a General Residential zone they could have seen an application for units and it’s also ‘pleasing’ that the applicant didn’t ask for the maximum height allowable (ie 10.5 metres). It’s also ‘pleasing’ that it’s a pitched rather than a flat roof.
MOTION PUT and CARRIED. LOBO CALLED FOR A DIVISION. Voting for: Okotel, Lipshutz, Hyams, Delahunty, Sounness, Magee. Voting against: Lobo and Esakoff
PS: Pilling was absent.
December 17, 2014 at 1:08 PM
Shocking!
It’s hard to choose the most inane comment. Arguably goes to Okotel for basing her vote on the word of the developer involved. A classic example of the community voting onto council dills who get there by knowing how to exploit the municipal electoral system.
As for the so-called Greens councilor voting in favour. Words fail me.
As one who has been critical of Oscar here, kudos to him for his vote and for forcing all councilors to publicly declare their hands.
December 17, 2014 at 1:11 PM
I have been following this site for some time and contributed on occasion, but am really starting to be put off by the relentless negativity and defeatism. What is the objective of this site? Just to bitch and moan about every single decision of Council, or try and be agents of change and improve outcomes? If it is the latter, then I cannot see how it assists anyone (except those you complain about) to start off with statements like:
“The outcomes from last night’s council meeting should provide a clear message to all residents that councillors are incapable, or unwilling, to represent their community. It is beyond doubt that there is no intention of doing anything about the new zones.”
There are a lot of people who are putting a lot of time and effort into raising and co-ordinating community support and engagement, and seeking a constructive dialogue with council and state MPs. People have been rallying to the cause. If they then come on this site, they are a greeted with a barrage of negativity and hopelessness. How many throw up their hands and give up? Who wins when that happens?
I don’t have a view one way or the other about this particular development, but I read some of the councillors’ comments and don’t think they are wholly unreasonable. Whether they or we like it or not, all planning decisions are a balancing exercise in the face of competing interests. Does Council get that balance right? Not always, and perhaps at the moment, certainly not as often as we would like. But to just keep telling readers that everything is hopeless and every single planning decision is wrong, is self-defeating. How easy it is for council to then dismiss objectors as “nay-sayers” (to quote Rhonda from Utopia) who are opposed to everything just for the sake of it.
What a difference it might make to see some constructive posts here giving people more information about how to oppose developments properly (i.e. on appropriate grounds), how to get involved in lobbying for change, where to get more advice and support, etc.
In the obsession with Council’s failings, too little attention is paid on this site to the role of State government in setting the legislative framework in which planning decisions must be made. (Or how the FIRB rules are not enforced at Federal level for that matter.) At the moment, council must continue to work within the framework set by the previous State government. The new State government hasn’t even settled in yet and Bentleigh is even more marginal than before. There is also a change in leadership at Council level. Now is precisely the time to encourage people to continue to lobby for change and better outcomes, and not tell them to throw in the towel.
Done ranting (for now).
December 17, 2014 at 2:52 PM
Agree wholeheartedly. I don’t recall a single item reported on this site, which GE Debates agreed with its decision or be happy about. I understand that this is not necessarily the purpose of this site, but one could argue at least why a certain decision is reasonable and others are not. After all politics is the art of the possible. i cannot see problems with non-residential uses in residential areas with appropriate conditions applied. After all, it’s been done like this for centuries everywhere.
If I am to comment on this item is from the politics of it. Who supports whom and perhaps why? Okotel is becoming quite active and has proposed the motion with the support of Lipshutz, which i think is significant. May be she is angling to become the next Mayor? Lobo’s opposition is probably predictable as he wants to ensure voters support. However, Esakoff’s voting against the motion is not obvious and the reason for it only she may know. The reduction in numbers is not a strong reason to reject an application. In case of kindergartens one can always apply to increase the numbers later on when actual impact of a kindergarten effect on neighbourhood is experienced. Also, VCAT may actually agree with the applicants. Unless of course the Labs will change the modus operandus of VCAT. Would not hold my breath on that.
The major issue that needs resolution at present is the CRRT trustees, VATC lease and MRC outdoor cinema. That should be the focus of the community and the Council, who should join forces and pressure the State government to do something about it.
December 17, 2014 at 3:52 PM
Could either of you please list what you think are the achievements of council and how the ledger comes out against the under achievements.
The blog is the only resource that I know that gives residents any inkling as to what is going on in council meetings. How to put in objections is covered by plenty of other organisations and groups.
Linking negativity with defeatism is pretty wide of the mark too. If the authors were defeatist and telling people to give up then they would have packed it in years ago.
On the politics point that has been raised. I agree that politics is playing a very large part in what happens. Even politics though has to have some consistent and credible basis and what these postings show so frequently is that there is no consistency in the arguments councillors use and most of what they say is unacceptable.
When residents keep objecting and pack out the town hall because they are worried about their streets and all councillors can do is lop off one storey here and there, then there’s something really wrong. Any resident who walks away thinking that this is good enough deserves what they get. Removing one storey is not a solution and there’s no guarantee that the same number of dwellings won’t be built. All this denotes is that the developer will probably build more single bedroom places to cover his losses on the removal of one floor. If that doesn’t work there’s vcat and amended permits.
If anyone doubts the anger that is out there from people then all they have to do is read the comments on the online petition about the zones. That’s not negativity but reality in my books and the criticism is well deserved considering that councillors aren’t doing anything to amend the zones and fix the damage they are creating.
December 17, 2014 at 5:32 PM
You have a point “Disappointed”. It is not easy to find positives that involve anything out of the ordinary though.
I’ve lived in the municipality of Caulfeld/Glen Eira for decades and it’s a long time since we’ve had a council administration that is more unresponsive to the people they are meant to serve than this lot. Cavalier even.
It’s not only the residents who feel aggrieved either. Let me illustrate. Recently I had the need to call council. Of course one gets the Service Centre – designed, in part at least, to shield ratepayers from speaking to someone who might be able to actually resolve the matter. Can’t have that!
The Service Centre operator promptly informed me it wasn’t a council matter and referred me to a State government department. On telephoning them I was told by a staff member that I was given the wrong information and why and directed back to Glen Eira. So frustrated was the staff member she gave me the direct number of an officer at Glen Eira telling me that council does this all the time.
As I’ve posted before, until we get sufficiently motivated to vote in councillors who are prepared to be more than handmaidens to the administration we’ll continue to be subjected to unresponsive officers and profligate spending.
I’d go even further. I’d love there to be the right of recall whereby the voters can petition to trigger a vote on the suitability of an elected official to continue in office. One ground would be the elected official had failed to follow through on his/her major pre-election undertakings. That may focus the minds of a few presently occupying office in Glen Eira.
December 17, 2014 at 9:17 PM
Your just all babes in the woods, being placatory, rational or polite, or positive is worth nought, these people abusers eat goodwill like starving hyenas, and then have contempt for you, as the fool you are.
Talking about winging negatives is rubbish, it is actually all about the negative. Most negative come highly disguised as positives, so don’t eat the chocolate coated crap serve up, if your fighting from a weak position, chances are all you have is a truck load of negatives, and one other thing, which cannot be seen, heard or smelt. It called a dynamic, a force that stimulates change or progress within a system or process.
Once you have the dynamic, they are doomed, so cultivate this force no matter what.
Play it hard and have no mercy for these conservative professional parasites that inhabit your halls, because in the end they will buy and sell you like dirt to meet their own ends. This might not be how you personally see life or how you would like to deal with people. Almost all people are motivated by money and their personal and family’s well being, all the rest about community good, better out-comes, they will make up then and there on the spot just to get through another day.
If you want to win, don’t do it for money, think long term 20 years, do it for the love of what’s right, fight hard, fight clever, love the fight, never forget, never, never miss a chance to undermine the ugly, and remember if you don’t fight, you lose
December 17, 2014 at 3:10 PM
Think the last sentence of your second last para is what the blog is on about and probably answers most of the other questions in your say.
December 17, 2014 at 3:35 PM
Well ‘Disappointed Reader’ I find your views quite difficult to understand and the assumptions behind them quite unfounded. Your statement that the site should provide ‘information about how to oppose developments properly (i.e. on appropriate grounds), how to get involved in lobbying for change, where to get more advice and support, etc.’ indicates that you think everyone who has taken action so far has not done so ‘properly’. Can I assure you that some Glen Eira residents have taken ‘proper’ action over many years to fight inappropriate development. We have worked long and hard doing everything we can to protect neighbourhoods from what is now an onslaught of development. We do know what to do and have been to VCAT, have rallied objectors, have attended planning conferences, have rung and engaged with councillors, have met with senior management.
Do you have any other suggestions for ‘proper’ opposition??
Councillor comments last night were wholly unreasonable, ill informed and miss the point that they have created the circumstances for uncontrolled development with virtually no protection for residents.
The ‘competing interests’ you talk about are very, very unfair competition that has no good outcome for existing residents. Developers win every time.
I only wish I could find something good from the words of councillors last night but alas I cannot. Their words made me furious as they demonstrated again that councillors have a total lack of understanding about the impacts of development on neighbourhoods, families and individual lives. This site at least provides an outlet for the frustration some of us feel.
I hope Glen Eira Debates continues with its strident analysis and criticism where criticism is due.
December 17, 2014 at 4:48 PM
You both have lost me. I cannot see anything wrong with the opening for the post. Please explain to me what you think is bad about it. Councillors are elected to represent residents. Residents keep saying that the zones are bad in lots of areas. Councillors are not listening. That is not representing residents when they have not even tried to change anything and from the looks of it will continue to not try. Adding a metre to a set back won’t do much and even with increased visitor parking when hundreds are being built in a street this won’t make much difference. No one has successfully explained why this happened without consultation and I don’t buy the answer that things would have been worse if there was consultation. That kind of answer is insulting and telling me that what I think is unimportant. If my councillors really and truly represent me then they have to know what I think. They can’t know what I think until they bother to ask and find out.
December 17, 2014 at 5:03 PM
I agree whole heartedly with you Colin
December 17, 2014 at 5:41 PM
Sigh, sadly, the knee-jerk responses are precisely why I and others – who have been VERY active in McKinnon – have reduced our engagement with this site. Anyone who doesn’t whole-heartedly chime in supporting every negative post then, in turn, becomes the subject of criticism.
If the statement: “It is beyond doubt that there is no intention of doing anything about the new zones” isn’t defeatist, then tell me what is?
I helped draft the online petition, so know only too well what the comments say. But the task of encouraging people to get involved and sign the petition is only made all the more difficult by statements like the opening paragraph, and comments like ‘developers win every time’ (from Anonymous). If I was reading all this for the first time, what incentive is there for me to stay positive and keep up the good fight?
So far this week, I and others have been called ‘ignorant residents’ and ‘scum’ by an obnoxious architect, responsible for several developments in McKinnon and Bentleigh, who has been trolling our McKinnon-Ormond Facebook page and wants to label us all as being completely anti-development. It is very disappointing to then come on here and be slammed for not being critical enough of Council and developers!
Like ‘stir like hell’, I don’t think I have ever seen a single post saying that a development or a Council decision was reasonable. Development will continue to take place, that’s reality. I’d love to see more genuine debate and discussion around what is or isn’t appropriate, without the fear of a backlash for daring not to be 100% anti-Council and developers.
Of course some people involved here have been very active, and that’s great – so let’s hear more about the proactive steps being taken. And why not at least include more details on the side panel about the resources available at other sites if you don’t want to post them here? Speaking from experience, many residents are submitting objections and raising arguments that are completely irrelevant to the decision-making process. That is just an opportunity lost through ignorance. A little bit of guidance – even if just by way of clearer links – would go a long way to improving the quality of objections, which benefits everyone here.
Anyway, they are just some suggestions – its not my site – I shall now sit back and wait for the tsunami of criticism
December 17, 2014 at 9:09 PM
Good points ‘Disappointed reader’. Here is another issue that this blog should cover (from Leader http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/central/glen-eira-council-predicts-losses-to-community-services-if-alp-rate-cap-plan-goes-ahead):
THE new State Government has started to make moves to cap council rates and Glen Eira Council is preparing for the worst.
Mayor Jim Magee has warned major projects would not be delivered and community services would be cut to the core.
“All we would have money for is picking up garbage and maintaining footpaths,’’ he said.
“If the state government wants to introduce rate capping then they’ll have to take over meals on wheels, kinder, child care, aged care, crossing supervisors. It’s probably the silliest thing I’ve heard in a very long time.’’
“We are very, very concerned.’’ …and
The Leader understands city leaders have revisited those concerns in light of the change in government and that councillors will discuss those concerns at tonight’s council meeting.
Government spokesman Chris Owner said the government was receiving advice on how to implement the policy.
He said the government would cap council rate increases so councils could focus on services people needed and “not the stunts that drive up rates”.
He said council budgets would be under scrutiny of an independent commission and unnecessary spending would be exposed.
Yes, how can Jim Magee on behalf of the Council pick on ‘soft spots’ of services, when GE Council increases rates by 6.5% over many years, while CPI is only 2.3%. We also know that GECC is top heavy (thanks GED). I would really love to see the Essential Services Commision to go through GECC books as the first Council to demonstrate how it can improve its performance. I am sure it can be done. The Mayor and Councillor should also be keen to see an independent body like ESC to verify what the community have been complaining about since 2003 (remember RAGE?)
December 17, 2014 at 9:17 PM
There’s several things about this proposal and the decision that are disquieting. It is on the Council meeting Agenda but it doesn’t say why. Was the number or substance of objections deemed significant, or did DCD or MTPT believe it was a significant departure from policy, or was it simply because of its significance or nature?
First under Item 9.1 it talks about the Community Plan, which is weird. The proposal isn’t for housing and doesn’t contribute to diversity of housing, and the building isn’t as sympathetic as possible to neighbourhood character. WTF.
The Report then invokes Council’s Child Care Centres Policy. Council’s policy contradicts its own Planning Scheme. RGZ, GRZ, NRZ *all* allow for a limited range of non-residential uses to serve local community needs in appropriate locations. The report admits it expects many people to drive their children to the centre, suggesting it isn’t there to service local needs, but rather the needs of people further away. This is a consequence of the policy that discourages child care centres where children are mostly located.
I was curious why the report was silent about the failure to comply with rescode standards, instead recommending changes to reduce the extent of non-compliance. Surely Council should be informed when a proposal doesn’t comply with its standards. After all, councillors stood on platforms of opposing inappropriate development. After reading the report, they still wouldn’t have a clue about compliance. Front fence height and setback from street are both non-compliant, even with the recommended changes. I don’t see 1.8m fences on the Tucker Rd streetscape in the area.
What did Cr Esakoff mean about it being an “allowable use” so they can’t oppose it? Did no councillor ask her to explain her nonsense? It is a Section 2 application, meaning a Permit is required. The Use is not as-of-right.
Comments like “minimal impact” and “will not have a significant adverse impact” about traffic are not to be trusted—Council’s transport planners make the same comments in areas where it can take you 10 minutes to move 400m and cars routinely drive down the wrong side of the road to get around queues of cars waiting to make a turn. These comments ignore what happens when an area is fully redeveloped to the target size and density. Under the principle of equitable development potential, what do you do when queue lengths and wait times become unacceptable? Shrug shoulders and walk away?
I don’t know what council officers think “integrate into the streetscape” means. The plans show it doesn’t really integrate, with such a dominant horizontal unarticulated line from the 2m screening on 1st floor. Curiously, the plans try to suggest foliage of street trees will mask it, whereas the existing trees are too tall for that.
Pleased to see Cr Hyams acknowledge the changes to the residential zones weren’t neutral. Back when it was R1Z it had a 9m height limit, now it’s 10.5m.
I’m not actually against the proposal, but I’d prefer more honesty and integrity in the decision-making. I’d especially like to see Council make an attempt to assess an application against the relevant Decision Criteria and state that assessment explicitly. This should include being honest about where a proposal doesn’t comply with standards and give their reasons are for accepting something lesser.
December 17, 2014 at 9:51 PM
Rates issue from 2004.
Crikey 12/3/2004
Readers feedback:
As a long-suffering ratepayer of Glen Eira I now pay over $2000 a year
to the wastrel ratbags ensconced in clown hall. For this I get garbage
collection & recycling, and occasionally somebody fixes the
road. Cat & dog rego and green waste collection are extras
you have to pay for. I’ve got no objection to aged care,
libraries and sporting facilities, but councillors and council
employees squandering public money on themselves is a different matter.
The renovations of the town hall a few years ago said it all. The
council chambers, meeting rooms and executive offices were luxuriously
revamped. The councillors & staff got comfy new leather
chairs in the chamber. But what about the ratepayers who came
along to council meetings as observers? They got the same hard
old recycled church pews that had numbed their bums before the
revamp. That said everything about the council’s view of the
punters.
Rummaging through the council website throws up other gems of attitude.
The council has an art collection. It’s too big to display all at
once. So the works are hung on rotation around the town hall, and
no doubt hugely appreciated by the art lovers on the council and the
staff. Some bright spark has tumbled to the fact that the
residents of Glen Eira might be wondering why there’s an art collection
if they don’t get the benefit. So there’s now a virtual gallery
attached to the council website. Paid for by guess who.
Add to this the ridiculous sister city arrangements, the overseas trips
by councillors to study things that have been studied by experts
before, and the minor but ludicrously unnecessary expense of robes
& regalia to enable the mayor to dress up like a third-rate King of Moomba, and you realise why the Residents Association of Glen Eira is rightly initialled RAGE.
Squandering money then and squandering money now as evidenced by GE Debates. Time for change.