Hyams moved motion to accept ‘as printed’. Seconded by Magee.
HYAMS: started by saying that there is ‘frustration’ that VCAT gets away with ‘pretty much ignoring our policies’. The act ‘requires VCAT to consider’ policies ‘rather than apply them’. Said that council went to the Supreme Court ‘many years ago’ about this and was ‘declined’. ‘Residents are continually let down by VCAT’. Admitted that it is ‘hard’ to compare applications that are exactly the same but claimed that ‘when VCAT is not bound by our policies’ it creates ‘uncertainty’ and that doesn’t ‘benefit’ anyone including ‘applicants because they don’t know what they can apply for reasonably’. Council will continue advocating like they have to ‘several governments’ for change.
COMMENT – When the new zones were introduced in secret, without community consultation, the argument went –
The new arrangements make clear the intensity of development that is allowable on any block. That provides certainty and “…as VCAT’s areas of discretion are reduced, Councillors’ views and decisions carry more weight. (Source: council ‘Guide to the Community’ from 2013). Now we have the reverse argument it seems – the zones have not brought ‘certainty’! Our view is that applicants know exactly where and what they can build because the zones tell them that this site can have 4 storeys, and that’s what council is encouraging you to build!
MAGEE: societies ‘live by what is reasonable’ and when the ‘majority’ want to go ‘left, we go left’ and when right, ‘we go right’. The Government requires a planning scheme and council ‘over a two year period talked to our residents’, ‘we consulted widely’. They produced a ‘booklet of what our residents wanted’ which ‘looked street by street’ and they ‘identified where high density should be’ near stations and the areas further away was ‘that’s where you want your minimal change’. So over time and ‘many many consultations’ the document ‘called the Glen Eira planning scheme’ was produced. This was approved at all levels. This was what council and ‘what our residents wanted’. But VCAT ‘has the right to ignore’ so there is a ‘statutary body ignoring what your residents have said’ like height limits and ‘increased setbacks’ and residents wanted to know where high density would go and ‘that is what you got’ with the planning scheme. ‘I believe we have a very, very good planning scheme’. Last year ‘VCAT approved 582 apartments’ that had been refused by council and that was because ‘it wasn’t consistent with our planning scheme’. ‘Our planning scheme is what our residents said they wanted’. Council ‘went to the community’ and asked ‘Do you approve?’ and residents said ‘yes’. The minister then approved but VCAT ‘only have to consider it’. So when council consider buildings of 9 or 2 storeys ‘we look at residential building codes’, and the planning scheme. Councillors ‘sometimes’ give a permit to ‘buildings we don’t like’ mainly because ‘there are no grounds for refusal’. ‘It is wrong to say we want this and then to vote for something different’. Council and community has ‘asked’ for this planning scheme and that is ‘what is so disappointing about VCAT’. VCAT is ‘like a box of chocolates’ in terms of its members that ‘you don’t know which one you are going to get’. You can ‘have a good member or a member that just goes to the letter of the law’. This isn’t ‘how society works’. Society ‘works in an environment where we want to make it better’. Said that no councillor wants a resident to ‘live near a 4 or 5 or 6 storey’ building. Reiterated about the current zones – ie two storey height limit in Neighbourhood Residential Zone and ‘98% of Glen Eira has a height limit’. ‘We have done what our residents have asked us’. It is ‘disappointing’ when VCAT ‘come back time and time again quoting ResCode’ and ‘totally ignoring the Glen Eira planning scheme’.
COMMENT: we need not comment on the above because the hypocrisy is simply mind boggling and frankly insulting. When Council can publish documents which state that they didn’t seek community input because they knew that residents would be worse off, and Magee can resort to using such terms as ‘consultation’ and imply democratic process, then this speaks loudly and clearly enough.
DELAHUNTY: they wanted the report to ‘show inconsistencies’ but what it ‘more outlines’ is the ‘frustrating nature of those inconsistencies’. Claimed that some members provide reasons for upholding council decisions and others use these very same reasons to ‘overturn’ council decisions. Council was trying to help those who have power to ‘understand the frustrations’ of council. Admitted that ‘it is very hard to find an apple and apple comparison’ but reading through decisions ‘you find yourself agreeing with the member’ one day and then the next there is a different decision. Said that ‘subjective decisions’ are relied up by both VCAT and councillors. That is ‘right’ because ‘we are closest to the community, we live in the community’ so that ‘sometimes we need that ambiguity’ in the planning scheme. This sometimes means that ‘we will apply some differences’ to the policies. (gave example of a previous decision for synagogue extension in Inkerman Road). ‘We do it ourselves’ we ‘change and we interpret our policies’ differently according to circumstances. When VCAT does this is it ‘frustrating’ because they are not ‘the closest to the community’. Hoped that government and VCAT would be ‘able to learn’ from the report as well as ‘council’ learning from ‘the way we have formulated the scheme’ and since they have ‘always stayed away from structure plans’ but maybe if they looked at ‘other councils’ that ‘have structure plans’ and how they go at VCAT but officers have said that they don’t fare any better – ‘it is not the case’. Hoped that ‘community voices’ and the ‘petitions’ will make government ‘take it into account’ in bringing the VCAT ‘member’ and the ‘decisions’ ‘closer to the people’. Thought that the report provided ‘enough’ for council to ‘advocate very strongly’.
COMMENT: how many times has Delahunty got on her high horse and demanded that ‘policy’ be adhered to by council? Examples – McKinnon Bowls club for one? Radio antennaes on council towers? If we are talking ‘inconsistencies’ then perhaps Delahunty needs to look at her ‘consistency’ levels when it comes to advocating on adherence to ‘policy’ or even the need to ’ ‘create’ policy to guide council decisions
SOUNNESS: thought planning was like the Japanese ‘chinko’ game where balls ‘go up’ and ‘down’. Going through all the processes ‘the community is bemused’ and the ‘planning officers do their very, very best’. Supported the ‘intent’ of the report but advised that people should read the ‘dense, turgid’ member decisions which are ‘quite entertaining’. This is the current state of the planning system and VCAT members have got ‘enormous discretion to go any way they want’. Didn’t think that council and planners have ‘got good tools to work with’. Has seen other places where the system works ‘with much more clarity’.
OKOTEL: shared the ‘frustration’ of all and ‘it is clear there is inconsistency in VCAT’s decision making’ especially on ‘neighbourhood character’. VCAT ‘interprets that very, very differently’. When council determines something they are a ‘quasi-judicial body’. It goes through the planning department and they consider ‘planning policy’ and put in their recommendations and ‘we apply’ the planning laws again. At VCAT there is an ‘unelected representative’ making a decision ‘as one person’. They ‘don’t have the same level of understanding’ as to ‘what is important’ to residents. The inconsistencies ‘are troubling’ because they ‘create uncertainty’ even for councillors because they have to think how VCAT will respond if an appeal goes in. Said this was ‘hard because we have consistently seen inconsistent decisions’.
COMMENT: and when council delegates practically all of its planning decision making to officers, who are also ‘unelected’ and probably don’t live in the municipality – then how different is this? As for the old chestnut, or thinking will need to consider what VCAT might do – could any councillor, please point to the exact clause, or section, of the Act which says this is part of any planning decision making process?
LIPSHUTZ: agreed with everyone and said ‘what a difference’ between democracies and ‘tin pot’ countries. In democracies, legislation and the courts ‘are separate’. In Australia, at all court levels judges are ‘appointed’ until they are 70, but not at VCAT where ‘members are appointed for a term’. ‘If they don’t follow the guidelines of government’ they won’t be reappointed. Said ‘there is no independent judiciary’. Also decisions by magistrates or supreme courts create ‘precedents’ and they are ‘independent’ and ‘make decisions irrespective of what the government said’. ‘The members of VCAT are not independent’. All members whether Labor, Liberal are ‘beholden’ to make decisions which are ‘in accord with government policy’ or ‘they do not get reappointed’. If this was ‘addressed’ then ‘some of the problems we are talking about today would disappear’.
COMMENT – we suggest that Lipshutz should start reading some VCAT judgements in order to discover how often members refer to previous decisions (in effect as ‘precedents’). As for high court judges, and state judges, Australian history is full of contentious ‘political’ court appointments!
HYAMS: endorsed Lipshutz and said the report ‘gave some hope’.
MOTION PUT AND PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
February 4, 2016 at 2:54 PM
I am assuming that the word debate is used in the most ironic sense. No debate here and no real discussion of the officer’s tabled report. The authors get my thanks for showing up how little respect there is for residents when this is the quality of councillors thinking. Singing from the same song sheet is fine as far as it goes. It is not fine, when the arguments conflict with what was promised and when councillors forget who they are meant to be serving. The ratepayers! All that was missing from the sounds of it were some violins playing in the background, especially needed to accompany that go-getter Magee.
February 4, 2016 at 3:05 PM
Re: Your last point. Yes, members do refer to precedents. However, given previous decisions are so inconsistent it’s still a guessing game with regard to which precedents they may refer to. I’m not saying the council scheme is up to scratch – it’s clearly not – but they are certainly to some extent correct in attacking the inconsistency of VCAT despite some of the vagaries of the GE planning scheme.
RE: The planning scheme, just one additional schedule could make an enormous difference. Specifying strict and absolute requirements for basement setbacks would severely reduce achievable density of developments and the profitability of developments. Do other councils have such a schedule? And is there any way Glen Eira residents can collectively request a motion for something like this? There are all sorts of other negative implications of boundary to boundary setbacks on neighbouring properties, water tables etc..
February 4, 2016 at 3:29 PM
Yes, Bayside for example has within all its zone schedules the requirement that basement carparks do not exceed 75% of the lot size.
February 4, 2016 at 3:43 PM
Sorry, the above should read Stonnington and not Bayside.
February 4, 2016 at 6:29 PM
You label the planning scheme as having some “vagaries”. That is being generous. When Guy allowed councils to use schedules to introduce so many new variations to Rescode Glen Eira chose to do nothing except bring in what they had already gained in 2003/4. Things change drastically in ten years like the street scapes, demographics, and need for public open space. Council should have used the schedules to make improvements. They didn’t and were prepared to go away with height limits that are higher in the growth zones that other councils were able to have gazetted. I don’t know how hard they tried to get other things through but if their only achievement is a four storey height limit with no thought given to open space, setbacks and parking availability, then they add up to nothing much. Especially now when residents are selling up together and developers get huge blocks so that they can put in more and more one bedroom places. What upsets me even more is that it has been two and a half years since the zones came in and plenty of time to see the impact. Council has not lifted a finger to do anything about the issues that residents complain about. I can’t think of one single amendment that has tried to make anything better. My lasting impression is that in the end council does not care about anything except raising money through rates to cover up for all their horrendous contract decisions of the past few years and hocking themselves for another 10 years. That alone should be the measure of how well this council performs.
February 4, 2016 at 4:21 PM
Cr Sounness is right about VCAT having enormous discretion to go any way they want. Council has the same discretion. When Council determines a planning application, they aren’t acting as a quasi-judicial body. They’re simply making a decision, and the Act says they can do anything they like unless prohibited.
It is weird that Cr Lipshutz would draw attention to the lack of democracy in Glen Eira since he is largely responsible for its poor governance. He is however quite correct in highlighting that VCAT Members are not independent and are beholden to the government of the day for continuing employment.
As for Cr Magee, I hope somebody challenges him to produce the evidence that the current planning scheme is what the community asked for. For each change to the scheme, let’s see if the majority of the population, around 74000 people, a) were asked and b) said yes. Start with C110.
VCAT’s Planning and Environment List is noxious, but Council simply hasn’t made much effort to write its Planning Scheme clearly. It hasn’t leveraged Schedules where available, hasn’t provided clear decision criteria, hasn’t consulted on residential amenity standards, hasn’t documented “preferred neighbourhood character” where that is relevant. It has even gone out of its way to undermine the scheme by repeatedly granting permits for developments that fail to comply with ResCode and by removing or weakening ResCode standards where possible. At least some rats are starting to flee the ship.
February 4, 2016 at 4:56 PM
Which residents asked for units to be only 40 square metrees and no ventilaion or direct light… and a VCAT DECISION CONFIRMED THIS UNHEALTHY GEC DECISION AND THE VCAT MEMBER STATED IT W
AS ACCEPTABLE FOR A QUARTER OF THESE BOXES TO BE WITHOUT NORMAL BENEFITS OF FRESH AIR AND LIGHT.
It would be good to hear from the blind/non fresh air promoters who could enlighten us of the benefits of dark airless accomodation
February 5, 2016 at 6:44 AM
The Chinese immigrants/students that will occupy these sub standard units reckon they are OK.
February 4, 2016 at 5:44 PM
I did once attempt to find out what each councillor’s personal definition of “inappropriate development” is, seeing as how they campaigned on it, but post-election they were suddenly reticent. No councillor was prepared to give their own definition. Instead they sent back some groupspeak: “councillors regard as inappropriate any development that does not comply with the relevant planning law”. Hence in their view, if it is not prohibited then it is appropriate.
I also asked what changes each councillor believed needed to be made to the Scheme so that it was clear what Council wished to achieve and what it considered inappropriate. According to the response, there were no changes they wanted made. They did postulate that the new residential zones would allow them to make it clearer what is considered appropriate, but history records they couldn’t be bothered.
When asked questions about what Council’s development standards were for basement driveways, they couldn’t or didn’t identify any standards. With no standards it is little wonder that anything goes, and the remaining disagreement between Council and VCAT is around just how bad a development needs to be before it qualifies as overdevelopment.
February 4, 2016 at 5:58 PM
We are in trouble when Councillors refer back to things that happened “many years ago!” If only the planning scheme policy could make clear rules so that residents, developers, councillors and VCAT all know what is acceptable. That would be good! My experience is that Councillors do not want to work together with residents to achieve a good outcome. I am still waiting to find out what Council’s response is to the new plans tabled by Minter Ellison re the 9 storey proposal on the old Broadbent’s site. Not interested in having a united front ie residents and Council!
February 4, 2016 at 7:37 PM
Off topic, but our prediction of street by street being ravaged as a result of the zones is coming true quicker than we anticipated – 24-26 Victory St., had an application come in yesterday for 4 storeys and 38 dwellings. 15-19 Vickery was for 4 storeys and 47 units. Councillors granted a permit for 3 storeys and 39 units. We would be willing to bet that the developers on both sites will simply argue ‘zones’ and will be awarded their permits.
February 4, 2016 at 8:45 PM
Magee was heard on the radio stating that residents cannot do much but accept the zones. In simple words get stuffed. Glen Eira you are right, Magee is a first grade bluffer and people are catching up with his careless comments. Matthew Guy and his party will suffocate in next election. Many councillors will be wiped out with the sunami in waiting and all those and their families & friend are disgusted the way the residents were treated and sold to developers.
February 5, 2016 at 9:26 AM
Accept the zones??? MRDAC has already prepared a list of 74 changes that the development industry have asked for to be made to the zones, plus MRDAC has a further 8 changes it wants made but doesn’t seek any input for. MRDAC doesn’t have any representation from residents and it should not be immune from criticism for describing the requested changes as “improvements”. Residents should be quite vocal about just how bad the current regime is. Cr Magee is clueless.
February 5, 2016 at 6:47 AM
GEC consultation is crapp. They simply publish a proposal and seek comment. They get plenty of feedback however none of this makes its way into the final document. Of course the professionals know best. The planners think they have all the good ideas.